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Famille-rose porcelain ?

by Jen

Hi Peter, This is the second piece I picked up at the estate sale. I have been trying to research the piece on the internet. I am novice and having trouble telling if this is a fake, reproduction or real famille-rose porcelain 1860? Your help is appreciated. Thank you! Jen

Comments for Famille-rose porcelain ?

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Oct 15, 2013
 Tongzhi?
by: Retired Big Ten Professor

Hello: The style and shape indicate this item is not a Tongzhi porcelain. It does have a strong possibility of being a Macao fake Tongzhi, and were made in Macao for tourists in the 1960's-70's. These items often carry fake Tongzhi marks. I have collected Chinese antique porcelain items for more than 3 decades, and love the beauty of both Ming and Qing Dynasties porcelain. Your interest will grow after a few good, and not so good purchases. Good Luck.
Oct 20, 2011
 love this blog :)
by: Jen

Thank you for your comments Anoyomous. I never thought to look at the Sotheby's and Chrisitie's website and find them very helpful. Finally some websites that show the value which is a wealth of information. I do appreciate art :) Phil and Peter find your comments interesting and find the history of chinese art both fascinating and complex.Lots to learn.... Thanks , Jen
Oct 20, 2011
 newer jar
by: Anonymous

Hi Jen,

Always glad to see more people appreciate the beauty of Chinese porcelain.

Your jar seems new to me because the bottom mark is done in more of a freer style than antique items, and the painting composition and colors are not classic as well.

I know most experts tell people to avoid the cheap items, but I feel at some point you must actually start buying something, provided that it is an item you like (whether it is antique or not) and it is within your budget (what you feel comfortable).

Regarding eBay, there are a lot of people out there all over the world looking on eBay and at times you may even have to pay a premium so you have to have a range of dollar amount in mind. Just don't get into the bidding process and lose your price range and overpay. The bottom line is you have to read a lot and look at a lot of items to sharpen your knowledge and skill. Go online to Sotheby's and Chrisitie's websites and look at their stuff. Good luck.
Oct 19, 2011
 Tongzhi mark
by: peter

Hi Phil,
I would think this would warrant a new thread. You are welcome to post your opinion in a new submission, next time. I will be interested in exchanging opinions/experiences in this respect, or any ohter related. This blog is not meant to be merely for identification purposes... :-)

"Seal mark" does not automatically mean that Zhuanti characters are used. There are many seal marks that use Kaiti characters. The meaning of seal mark is just that, it is made in the way of Chinese seals. Some don't have a frame, like most Qianlong marks, some do.

As concerns the Tongzhi marks. All Tongzhi items I own do have a red mark that is a seal mark (with frame).
There seems to be quite a variety of seals with four or six characters, both Kaiti and Zhuanshu, in the Tongzhi mark. And the Zhuanti characters themselves are also written in different styles.

From my marks book (in Chinese) I know that there are Tongzhi marks that are blue Kaishu, even with a double ring (rare). But, I have never met any in real life.
I don't quite agree with your view that all seal marks are Guangxu. Some are... especially the rubber ones. During the Tongzhi reign it seems the change of marks that was under way during the Xianfeng reign was continued. In the Xianfeng reign, the mainstream of marks seem to show a change from seal-type Zhuanshu marks to six character double line Kaishu. This is continued during the Tongzhi reign. The changes then went further at the beginning of the long Guangxu reign. When Chinese try to identify an item that is from this period, they often say "Tong-Guang", because painting styles did not abruptly change with the reign. And, it is known that many Tongzhi marks were stamped in the Guangxu period. But, saying that all seal-type marks are Guangxu, that is a bit difficult to accept. Some of the Tongzhi seal marks in zhuanti characters look more like the earlier Xianfeng or Daoguang marks than any of the Tongzhi marks that were supposedly applied in the Guangxu period. My theory is that this is early Tongzhi, although this is only a theory. With minyao items there ware so many different marks in existence at any one time, that it is difficult to prove anything.

A "red" non-seal type Kaishu mark of the Tongzhi period is something I have not seen yet, however, either on an authentic Tongzhi item or shard, nor in a book.
I would be interested to know if you can point me to any authentic mark of that nature, if you know or encounter one. Thanks for your post.

Peter
Oct 19, 2011
 Thanks
by: Jen

Peter,
Thank you for the comments and great collecting advice. Luckily on these two pieces I paid $50 for both. I am glad that I stayed away from the higher ticket items at the estate sale. Researching the art history on line has been fun. I read through the comments on your blog yesterday and the website and found it very informative. Thank you for this blog that has been a great source of information for me. Thanks, Jen
Oct 19, 2011
 reply to Peter.
by: phil

Peter, you mention that most Tongzhi marks are seal stamps, whilst most are seals , (zhuanshu) it`s my opinion that most, if not all, period marks are hand drawn. The red rubber stamped marks that are so common are nearly always, if not always Guangxu, despite many dealers claiming them as M&P. I`ve come to this conclusion after many years hunting for dated Tongzhi pieces bearing stamped marks, to no avail I should add & it would seem that stamped marks are no earlier than circa 1890, therefore Guangxu.

All the best,
Phil.
Oct 18, 2011
 vase
by: peter

As with the other, this is much too "young". Despite the small images I can see that the hairdo of the ladies, colors and overall decoration, as well as the shape, are not right for an antique. The mark says Tongzhi reign, but it is written in the wrong character style. Actually, Tongzhi marks were mostly in the style of seal stamps.

Jen, if you are just starting out I would advise against buying at estate sales without knowing what you have to look for. It may be exciting, but it may cause you to spend money on things that have little real value. Pleae be aware that we here believe that only one in a hundred "antique"Chinese porcelain items is genuine. That is, there is only a 1% chance that you find an antique. This may be a bit higher in some places, but hardly over 5%, I would think.

Depends whether you are in it for the excitement or the items. If it is for the items, certain Ebay sellers may be better to start with.

Also, generally plates, cups and bowls have a lower value (read: cost) because they were produced in much larger quantities than vases, jars, etc. For a novice it would therefore always be better to start with plates, bowls, etc.
Keep the cost low until you are sure you get the real thing. And, antique items almost always have some blemishes, like hairlines, chips, and the like. Perfect items should be considered as suspicious.

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